Praying for others.

This post has a bit of background to it. A post I did on this blog, The Significator. Dated July 30th. A post I did two posts ago called 'Energy Exchange'. The entire theme is of energy exchange and prayer when a kind of codependent need arises and it has obviously been something I have been thinking about a while. 

Conclusions.

In the post "energy exchange", I concluded that prayer was OK under certain conditions. Previously, on a forum I made this post. This is an except of said post:

These are the experiences I have had with attempting to use prayer and/ or energy work to aid others:

 

A) In my teens or early twenties did some prayer for all those around me before bed each night. One of my close friends had an experience during that time that we both felt, I think, came from said prayer. He had had an argument with his fwb about him watching porn and she was now angry with him. He told me to stop doing this and not ever do it with him.

 

This guy engaged in a lot of degeneracy and has started to come around now more than a decade later due to medical issues.

 

B) Sent energy to my mother who came home many times more stressed than normal. Only five minutes.

 

C) Sent energy to a family member who became aggressively suicidal during this period. A very passive aggressive and dark person. Felt like he was trying to "throw off" the prayer.

 

D) Sent energy to mother again who had a sudden issue at work losing her laptop. It felt like since someone is being given an extra energy, if they are atheist and can't identify what the energy is or why it is suddenly there, they are more likely to push against it.

 

E) One that was actually successful. A female friend I had I have mentioned. Borderline and horrible insomnia. Month after month sometimes with about an hour sleep a night as she told it. I prayed for her once without telling her and she slept through the night. Phoned me super happy. Another time when I prayed for her she phoned me and said she had had a good day and was suddenly far more happy. This person was open and happy to receive prayer though. When I told her after the first insomnia thing she was happy and positive about it.

Even though there are sometimes exceptions. The general leaning and conclusion is that it is not best to pray for people for all sorts of reasons. I outlined an exception in the post called 'Energy Exchange', but I am walking that back now. 

Visiting the real world.

Following up on the post 'energy exchange talk'. From that post:

As I move forward in articulating what I think is relevant in bringing these abstract concepts to real life. I find that I can't dismiss many of the subjective experiences I have. I have to find some way to philosophise on these to make them relevant. This being something that will happen in the future though. A great deal of subjective experiences impacts on my life in relation to these concepts. But I try to make things as objective and real world as I can, in order for them to be useable.

In terms of the useability of these concepts. It seems to me that breaking things down to their most domestic every day manifestations is highly productive. 

But I also want to bring in something else. When we raise our attention to the level of all this energy work. Of things that are only perceived in the mind and not in factual reality. It brings in a whole other arena of processing the interactions happening there. Not for real of course. If we sit back and visualise a friend talking to us we don't imagine this is a real thing. Like, we can take our imagined communication and base reality on it. But, how we are engaging with this world might still be relevant. 

Going from this now, I am going to quote Stefan Molyneux as to what happens with the general process of codependency. Episode 4916:

2:09:00: 

It means that you, really want to change people around you, desperately want to change people around you, which is actually their desire not yours. If you want to change say… Sue. Some woman named Sue in your life. You try to change her, you want to change her, you keep going back. You email her, you send her messages you talk… you understand the desire to change her comes from her not you. She wants you to try and change her it gives her power over you. And she doesn't have much power because she's a [inaudible]. She's not connected to reality she's connected to opinions. Or CNN whatever right. So Sue, Susan. The desire to want to change Susan comes from Susan not you. You are a slave to her desire for you to change her. To want to change her.

 

If you were dating a woman, you kept taking her out on expensive trips. But she knew the moment she slept with you you'd leave her. Is she gonna sleep with you? No, because not sleeping with you gets her more benefits than sleeping with you. Not changing gets Susan and other people more benefit from you than changing. Because the moment they change, they go from a position of power, to a position of desperation. From weakness. From power to supplication. If they join you on the 'I want to change people' side. Then they're no longer on the position of withholding change and thus having power over others. Now, they're on your side. Which is the begging, supplicating, please change so I can be happy. I am a slave to you not changing.

 

Now who wants to go voluntarily from master to slave? Who wants to go from a high power, moral superiority situation? To a low power desperate begging dog situation. No, they're not going to change. Because you want them to change. They won't surrender high power, for low power.

Stefan Molyneux flat out sounds like Shakespeare sometimes. Here is another few lines. FDR Podcast 5345:

7 min: Dieting has a failure rate of 95%. When people have every incentive to help themselves. Encouragement. Health benefits. Longevity. What makes you think you can bat better than that. How many people start an exercise regime and stick to it for any length of time?

27 min: Your brother knows he's not going anywhere. 'Hey man you're not doing anything with your life'. He knows he's not doing anything with his life. But when you tell him that. He fights against you and that diminishes his stress at not doing anything in his life.

 

28 min: He can reject persons argument and that means he rejects his own anxiety.

From the notes I have taken, they are not nearly as clear as the previous example. The conclusion here is that you do not attempt to help people because it is close to impossible. It creates loads of issues such as that they might feel an anxiety towards change, and that if you become the symbol of said change they can reject you/ the change, along with their stress.

To be clear that does not mean you don't ever "state your case". 

In relation to prayer though, prayer I believe is relevant and powerful. It happens sometimes without any consequences or responsibility being incurred. I imagine, for instance, the local Christians prayed that I stop astrology when I saw them briefly. 

So it is worth bringing these philosophical insights to prayer. 

Conclusion.

The real conclusion here is that I am using a complex process to justify something I have already decided and that goes as follows. 

A) When going to the gym. That I have been doing recently now that my health has allowed it. (And I am a strong convert now!) It becomes clear that attachment in a real way to physical reality. The feeling of strength. Can separate a person from that 'realm' and that I think is a truly positive thing.

The process of introspection has lead me in a lot of cases to consider 'power' as a concept. Power in the real world effects these energies. Money etc. But it doesn't make reference to them directly. I think that is very valuable. 

B) The last relevant reason, and a difficult reason, to separate from attempting to help others by "prayer" is that I simply, get too tired! Someone elses issues are not my issues. Praying for someone that is continually making bad choices is putting energy down a black hole. This applies to the example that was successful in my earlier recounting of my own experiences praying and sending energy to others. The point is that I did not have the energy to continue to send energy to her. And now that my health has improved. I still don't have the energy to engage in that kind of thing. 

It is a hard thing to justify, on the positive path, to those with conscience. To actually remove energy to attempt to help others or care for them. It needs some truly deep and insightful explanation and information to do so. I feel that it was always a lie that society tries to make us be self centered. It seems to me now that society tries to make us codependent. Perhaps it makes the good people codependent. 

But this is my conclusion thus far. With all the back up posts. And I hope that it is a good enough case!